Late Iron Age necropolis of Seminario Vescovile in Verona (Northern Italy, 3rd-1st).

[Cascio]

imgur.com/0BhyTNe.png

Thanks to Stefano, teepan, Davidski and Ajeje Brazorf for all their work converting and sharing these samples! We waited for cisalpine gaul samples for years
They're just what I expected them to be, an intermediate between SE Gauls, Etruscans and Carniola Celts

Target: Celtic_Cisalpine_(ITA_Verona_LIA)
Distance: 1.0787% / 0.01078729
43.0 Celtic_Gaul_Southeast
34.2 Celtic_Carni
22.8 Etruscan

Iron Age


Modern


Iron Age PCA



It's the piece I was waiting for to "complete" my Iron Age 400BC-ish heatmap





Might as well update my 400bc calculator and share with you guys.

Target: Italian_Veneto
Distance: 0.9976% / 0.00997596
58.6 Celtic_Cisalpine
24.2 Phrygian*
13.2 Germanic
4.0 Rhaetian

Target: Italian_Trentino-Alto_Adige
Distance: 0.8499% / 0.00849903
60.6 Celtic_Cisalpine
19.2 Phrygian
11.2 Germanic
9.0 Rhaetian

Target: Italian_Emilia_Parma-Piacenza
Distance: 1.2888% / 0.01288750
56.2 Celtic_Cisalpine
34.8 Phrygian
9.0 Germanic

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 1.3053% / 0.01305272
69.4 Celtic_Cisalpine
27.6 Phrygian
3.0 Germanic

Target: Italian_Lombardy_Val_Seriana
Distance: 1.0880% / 0.01088038
63.0 Celtic_Cisalpine
22.2 Phrygian
12.8 Rhaetian
2.0 Germanic

Target: Italian_Piedmont_Val_Borbera
Distance: 0.9651% / 0.00965054
56.4 Celtic_Cisalpine
33.6 Phrygian
10.0 Germanic

Target: Italian_Piedmont
Distance: 1.3209% / 0.01320901
56.8 Celtic_Cisalpine
27.0 Phrygian
16.2 Germanic

*Phrygian is just a placeholder for Anatolian input

Lombardy (lowlanders) seems to have preserved Cisalpine Celtic DNA the most in northern Italy. Already suspected that due to their high EEF compared to their neighbors, while at the same time not having preserved WHG as the highlanders from the Orobian alps (they score excess Rhaetian).

The complete Iron Age spreadsheet can be found here.

Do you have the co-ordinates for these North Italian categories (including Phrygian) above. 

I believe I am close to Lombardy and Val Borbera. Thanks.

[alexfritz]

on a sidenote the Val Borbera has a good amount of G-L497 (n=85 11/85 12.9% Grugni 2018)
the frm Hallstatt elite/dyansty's clade

[Cascio]

I am close to Lombardy with:
68.2 pc

28.0 pc Phrygian

3.8 pc Germanic

Distance:0.02076012

[ChrisR]

Thanks to Stefano, teepan, Davidski and Ajeje Brazorf for all their work converting and sharing these samples! We waited for cisalpine gaul samples for years
They're just what I expected them to be, an intermediate between SE Gauls, Etruscans and Carniola Celts

What about the Adriatic Veneti? Can we expect them to be just another intermediate of Cisalpine Gauls and Carniola Celts (and Etruscans)?

Regarding the two samples you choose to represent Rhaetian (CHE_IA:SX18, DEU_Roman:FN_2) they seem very similar to the Cenomani 3227 and 3217, so the best approximation we have also IMHO. But I would like to have confirmation from some inner Alpine Pre Roman Rhaetia samples and the comparison to the late Roman-Rhaetia-Burgeis/Venosta cemetery samples. We have only one Sim so far and the southern shift against the Magna Grecia (Med cultures) admixture would be nice to observe and quantify better with official G25 from all good Burgeis samples.

[cheshire]

Thanks to Stefano, teepan, Davidski and Ajeje Brazorf for all their work converting and sharing these samples! We waited for cisalpine gaul samples for years
They're just what I expected them to be, an intermediate between SE Gauls, Etruscans and Carniola Celts

What about the Adriatic Veneti? Can we expect them to be just another intermediate of Cisalpine Gauls and Carniola Celts (and Etruscans)?

Regarding the two samples you choose to represent Rhaetian (CHE_IA:SX18, DEU_Roman:FN_2) they seem very similar to the Cenomani 3227 and 3217, so the best approximation we have also IMHO. But I would like to have confirmation from some inner Alpine Pre Roman Rhaetia samples and the comparison to the late Roman-Rhaetia-Burgeis/Venosta cemetery samples. We have only one Sim so far and the southern shift against the Magna Grecia (Med cultures) admixture would be nice to observe and quantify better with official G25 from all good Burgeis samples.

I think they're gonna be close to Carniola celts too. Bet they'll plot somewhere near the black circle or south of it at best (toward Etruscans):

[R.Rocca]

I had the same problem when the files came out using SAMTOOLS.

If you're running it on Linux Ubuntu: Index the bam file with samtools ('samtools index filename.bam') and then run the bam on WGSExtract. This should work. Make sure to keep the index file (.bam.bai) and the bam in the same folder when you run the bam.

I am running it on Ubuntu for Windows 11 using that same command. No luck. May try again this weekend when I have time.

The bams need to be sorted first.

Seems to have done the trick.

[R.Rocca]

For the R1b files, this is what I got:

Sample 3220: M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>U152/S28>Z56>BY3548>Z43/S366>Z48/S484>BY3952>S4634+
Z46+ (11 derived reads)
Z48+ (7 derived reads)
S4634+ (1 derived read)

(Has 3 conflicting L2+ reads as well)

Sample 3214: M269>P312/S116>Z290>L21/S145>S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>A1108>A1131+
Z260 (2 derived reads)
Z290 (1 derived read)
L21 (8 derived reads)
A1109 (1 derived read)
A1132 (4 derived reads)
A1131 (1 derived read)


Sample 3210: M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>U152/S28>L2/S139>DF110>BY42653>Y3964>BY25318+
U152 (1 derived read)
DF110 (3 derived reads)
Y3960 (2 derived reads)
BY25318 (5 derived reads)
BY25320 (3 derived reads)

Sample 3227: M269>M269>L23>L51>Z2118>~18571755-G-A>S1161>S1141>A613>Y16632+
Z2118 (2 derived reads)
Z2115 (4 derived reads)
Z2119 (6 derived reads)
Z2120 (5 derived reads)
CTS6889 (2 derived reads)
Y11820 (1 derived read)
PF7592 (3 derived reads)
FGC19599 (6 derived reads)
Y16632 (2 derived reads)

Sample 3232: Contaminated - Not enough data

[ChrisR]

Sample 3227: M269>M269>L23>L51>Z2118>~18571755-G-A>S1161>S1141>A613>Y16632+

Had to look this one up
R1b-M269>L23>L51>PF7589>CTS10379>CTS6889>Z2120>FGC48821>S1141>CTS11824>CTS11659>Z6817>Y16632
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Y16632/tree (he is there)
R1b-M269>L23>L51>Z2118>Z2116>S1161>CTS6718>FGC48821>FGC12521>PF7592>CTS11659>Y16632
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y16632/

I think I never saw one confirmed in a modern Alpine context. In Alpine Y-DNA project one with paternal Zürich line might be in this clade:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Alp...e=yresults

[RBHeadge]

Sample 3227: M269>M269>L23>L51>Z2118>~18571755-G-A>S1161>S1141>A613>Y16632+

I think I never saw one confirmed in a modern Alpine context. In Alpine Y-DNA project one with paternal Zürich line might be in this clade:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Alp...e=yresults

The highest concentration of PF7589, based on random testing, is 13.4% and found in East Tyrol. The paper didn't use NGS testing so we don't know the branch(es) of PF7589 found in East Tyrol. Concentrations from 1-3% are found elsewhere in the Alps. FTDNA kits show that they are from various branches of PF7589.

You have a couple PF7589 in the Alpine Project:
321510 Italy CTS118524 (predicted)
B1142 CH Z29840
(340675 is probably DF27)

Sample 3227 being under Y16632 is... unexpected. The other branches under Y16632 show a more northern bias, more so than other PF7589. That branch previously had no one from Italy or the alps. I'd expect most of those Y16632 sub-branches to be in northern France, southern Scandinavia, or northwest Germany around this time in history.
I understand that 3227 may have contamination issues, so we may never know if he was local or came from elsewhere with other Celts. Y16632 is c2000 BCE and would have been living with most other PF7589 branches in the vicinity of Transdanubia Hungary.

[Capitalis]

Some of you guys apparently have G25 coords for ancient Rhaetians. I seem to have missed out on some study or thread...

Would you be kind enough to post whatever Rhaetian G25 coords you have, or anything BA or IA in that area if it exists ? (A link to a study and/or info on place and time would be appreciated). Thanks in advance.

I can't guarantee you they're Rhaetian, but both samples are from Rhaetian-speaking areas (Vennones) and plot very near each other. I use them for my heatmaps and calculators.

Code:

Rhaetian:CHE_IA:SX18__BC_82__Cov_52.40%,0.125205,0.153345,0.050534,-0.003876,0.049548,-0.005578,0.0047,-0.002077,0.014726,0.033896,0.001786,0.016335,-0.016353,-0.008945,0.001764,-0.001591,0.009518,0.001647,0.002514,-0.006128,0.005241,0.005688,-0.012078,-0.004338,0.000958
Rhaetian:DEU_Roman:FN_2__AD_300__Cov_91.96%,0.117238,0.151314,0.045254,0.000323,0.052317,0.001952,0.0047,-0.006,0.01943,0.028064,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.017393,-0.013212,-0.004614,0.00411,0.009388,0.006334,-0.000377,0.0005,0.000624,0.001484,-0.000616,-0.00735,-0.001796

The most recent Reich lab AADR file has SX18 labelled as Switzerland_EBA_2 but with a date of 172 calBCE - 12 calCE. Is this their error, or has the sample been reclassified as EBA?

[alanarchae]

the whole East Tyrol/Inn River to Adige to the Adriatic north Italy fascinates me. A key area with key Alpine passes on the trade routes that ran from central and northern Europe to the Adriatic. Likely vital to Frattesina in the late bronze age and i’d say to the story of the Rhaeti and Veneti. And somewhere in that tabgievof prehistiry the fact that Rhaetic and Etruscan languages appear to have a late bronze age common ancestor also needs explained.

My own view (though with little evidence) is that people from Fratessina and surrounds migrated to Tuscany in the late proto villanovan. I have read there is an influence from the Fratasinna direction in Tuscan proto villanovan and that some of the Etruscan towns have revealed a late proto villanovan founding phase. I think Fratessina likely fell because the Veneti pushed into the Adige area (first noted around Lake Garda) and started controlling2shoet circuited the flow of copper and trade route through the Alps and possibly due to changes in the greater Po system and how it reached the Adriatic. Ive pondered this a lot and it’s the only explanation I can think of that stacks up. Need a lot more ancient upper and DNA to prove it though.

[ChrisR]

I have no dominant favorite among the possible genesis of the Rhaeto-Etruscan connection and the broader Tyrsenian (Lemnian) connection - I must concede I have not consulted all available mainly linguistic publications. However I remain of the position dominant genetics, dominant culture (artifacts) and dominant language in one area/population must not come from one source. IMHO so far multiple hypothesis remain possible. I did see published more on pre Hellenistic/Roman era activity and connections over the Adriatic of all the involved populations then on the Tyrrhenian Sea. This includes early port activity at least in early Iron Age, but also population movements, probably mainly from the Balkanic to the Italic side. So the Adriatic sea way looks like a good candidate. The intriguing thing according to the seemingly limited linguistic reconstructions Rhaetian seems to have splitted first from Etruscan and Lemnian (Simone and Marchesini 2013). This would suggest the Lemnian might be a colony of Adriatic Proto Etrusco-Lemnians, similar to the later Venetic republic colonies.

Sorry for the OT, but understanding the Rhaeto-Etruscan history, together with Veneti, Central Italics and Norics and Cisalpine Gauls is all important and interconnected in one way or another for the first millennium BC.

[alanarchae]

I have no dominant favorite among the possible genesis of the Rhaeto-Etruscan connection and the broader Tyrsenian (Lemnian) connection - I must concede I have not consulted all available mainly linguistic publications. However I remain of the position dominant genetics, dominant culture (artifacts) and dominant language in one area/population must not come from one source. IMHO so far multiple hypothesis remain possible. I did see published more on pre Hellenistic/Roman era activity and connections over the Adriatic of all the involved populations then on the Tyrrhenian Sea. This includes early port activity at least in early Iron Age, but also population movements, probably mainly from the Balkanic to the Italic side. So the Adriatic sea way looks like a good candidate. The intriguing thing according to the seemingly limited linguistic reconstructions Rhaetian seems to have splitted first from Etruscan and Lemnian (Simone and Marchesini 2013). This would suggest the Lemnian might be a colony of Adriatic Proto Etrusco-Lemnians, similar to the later Venetic republic colonies.

Sorry for the OT, but understanding the Rhaeto-Etruscan history, together with Veneti, Central Italics and Norics and Cisalpine Gauls is all important and interconnected in one way or another for the first millennium BC.

I think that the Etruscan language is native to some part of Italy since the bronze age is highly likely. However I do favour the idea that they arrived in Tuscany in the late bronze age (proto-villanovan) phase from somewhere further north-east within Italy. My own hunch (which remains just a theory with virtually no relevant samples) is that the Etruscan language was in use prior to the LBA in the eastern end of the Po Valley and also in the key copper trade route that went along the Adige and into Tyrol and also north of the Alps. So i’m looking particularly at Fratessina. When I read into the origin of Fratessina, it looks to me like it emerged from late Terramare whose focus shifted east over time: I think the fact Fratessina was a hugely important centre of diistrubution of a tyrol metal in Italy and of trade across the Adriatic and beyond lively explains both Rhaetic and Lemnian. 

But of course there is so tiny an ancient DNA sample (especially of ydna) that this is just a hypothesis. soy seems likely to me that the Veneti followed the copper route into the area c.9000BC and either caused the fall of Frattesina and its satellites or exploited the fcollapse of it.

[Rodoorn]

The Dutch from North to South.

As I expected the biggest distance have the Frisians,the Wâldpyk clan, the NE Dutch "from the sand and peat" (slightly higher BB ancestry, mc Coll East North Sea Coast cluster) in the middle (Rodoorn Dad, Mom, the creatags) and the South Dutch the Kellebell clan (high grade Limburg) on top!

[Mokordo]

Distances for a quite average Spanish (half Basque/half Andalusian)



And results:

Target: Mokordo(MyHeritage)
Distance: 2.1267% / 0.02126697
37.2 undefined:3220
28.6 undefined:3308
9.2 undefined:3298
8.2 undefined:3779
8.0 undefined:3265
6.4 undefined:3225
2.4 undefined:3206

Target: Mokordo(23andMe)
Distance: 2.5257% / 0.02525655
26.6 undefined:3308
24.0 undefined:3220
21.2 undefined:3298
20.0 undefined:3225
5.0 undefined:3265
3.2 undefined:3779